5.30.2006

World of Rangecraft and Rogues

Since 1.11 is in public beta and 1.12 is on the horizon, its a good time to bring up some of the issues thats detrimental to the rogue class (and my feral pussy cat).

1. Vanish
Oh ya, when is blizzard going to fix this shit. Nothing beats vanishing and knocked right out due to mid-swing attacks, heat-tracking arcane missles, and pet of all seeing. Vanish was working at an acceptable level during 1.8 to 1.9 and now its broken as fuck similar to pre 1.7. What the fuck is this.

And vanish is almost useless in PvE raids as combat pulses will knock you right into combat. Nothing beats seeing hunters getting up from FD after a raid wipe. I disenchanted my Jumper Cable XL.

I suspect vanish bug is due to.....

2. Location Validation Bug/ Server-Client Dissync
This is the worst shit ever. No other class can imagine how bad this is. It's comparable to, say, a mage casting Arcane Explosion right on top of a rogue and yet the rogue is not getting damaged. It's completely bullshit.

Blizzard doesnt seem to be aware of this shit since they play test on Intranet servers. But all rogues living outside of Orange County and has a ping above 30ms should have experienced "Your target is too far away" error messages of some sort.

And on top of this, you have the lag issue that kills all rogues. Sure lag effects all classes, but a 1 second cast Arcane Explosion will still hit a rogue, but a 1 second cast Kidney Shot will be "Your target is too far away" or "You are facing the wrong way". Range classes simply suffers minimally from lag compare to melee classes.

3. Damage Mitigation Scaling
So we are rogues. We fight in melee range (5 yards). We wear leather armor of value ranging from 1500-2500. Fine.

But why the fuck are hunters wearing mail and fight at 30 yards? It's not like any melee class can kill a hunter in PvP even if they wear cloth. So what's the logic here? Making an impossible-to-kill class to invincible?

And the caster armor scaling just perplexes me. A good PvP caster can have around 3000-4000 armor with 4000-5000 HP self buffed. That's roughly 35% melee damage mitigation. And rogues only have 1500-2500 armor. Something is wrong here.

Further, melee damage mitigation increases as melee DPS, but magical damage mitigation does not increase as magical damage increase? WTF is wrong with Blizzard designerss fuck up brain? Sure I can wear FrostR to counter frost damages, but I would still get pwnt by the mage with his pom pyro and fireballz. Comparatively, a mage can wear high armor set and wtfpwn rogues AND warriors. I woulda kill for a single set that has high stam/high ap AND resist to all schools of magic by 40%.

4. Stats Points Valuation
So why are we getting so much strength? Why not just translate the fucking strength into AP for us. It's exactly the same thing and yet cheaper. Even higher armor will be better. It's as dumb as putting strength on hunter's mail or putting agility on priest's cloth.

BTW translate the 1% dodge on BF boots/shoulders into Agi or Stamina please.

5. Damage Scaling
Oh hey dumbfucks, 1 damage/healing increase caster damage by 1. 1 attack power increases rogue damage, uh, by 0.07. So what's the situation here? Rogue's burst DPS is way lower than warlocks at the moment. Sure we can ambush->backstab for a godly 2500-3000 damage, and we would be kited to death from 100->0.

Ya sure, we can do 100->0 stunlock combo when the hour/minute/second hands of the clock overlap, but that would take us more than 15 seconds to do so. How long does a warlock/mage need to kill a rogue? 10 seconds max.

Every other class can burst DPS, and they all burst DPS better than rogues. Well, perhaps not paladin but they can't even be killed anyway.

22 comments:

Renbletz said...

RARR!! *clawing motion*

This one's a lot angrier and less concise than your other posts... bit o' pent up fury going on there? >.>

Hexapuma said...

Yes yes yes.. there is nothing more annoying that "your target is out of range".. perhaps the warning about not even facing your target...

I heard that EQ2 had to increase their rogue's melee range just to combat the lag...

I say probably a full third of my deaths comes from laggy encounters...

Zathras said...

Rogues are a joke, nothing more and nothing less at the moment.

Mages, warlocks, priests, druids, paladins, warriors, shamans, hunters all have either more hitpoints, more armour or some type of skill that absorbs damage that gives them more survivability than the rogue.

Every single class can attain a stupid amount of burst dps these days, and a lot of them do it from an insane range as well. The range arguement, however valid always gets shot down with the 'but you have stealth' thing. Stealth has been nerfed and nerfed again from the detection radius to the amount of things that remove it and it's a freaking joke.

Add to this that warlocks and fury warriors can simply match our DPS during end game raiding, the only single role for a rogue during raids gets invalidated as well.

We are going to need some real buffs here. And I do mean some REAL freaking buffs, not swapping around some talents and saying that we are fine. But yeah, I seriously doubt that we are going to get that. Seeing blue posts on the US rogue forum saying things such as 'We are not going to overhaul the class' and replies among the lines of 'lol you are not getting 2h weaps and mail' make me cry.

Already blizzard is planning to overhaul the rage generation system in patch 1.12 whereas it's freaking OUR turn. Blizzard dev's have stated that they can't wait till they get to work on warriors and warlocks again after the review cycle is completed, but we have yet to see any comprehensive posts about rogue changes in 1.12. Interestingly enough several details about warriors changes are already available on the warrior forums and the rogue forums are currently haunted by an eery silence on blizzard's behalf.

Rogues need more damage in endgame raids, scalability is a huge issue at the moment, in terms of equipment and skills. I won't quit world of warcraft when they mess up the rogue review, I'm too much of an addict for this. But I fear the worst right now, with the complete lack of attention, the lingering bugs that we have had to endure for months, a statement that no radical changes will be made to our class and the recent nerfing of the rogue deathdealer set (bringing the item level down, whereas other sets keep theirs) make me very worried.


And the really sad part about this is that rogues are the most technical players in world of warcraft at the moment. Blogs such as these, websites, damage calculators, equipment comparisons, eveything points that the rogue population is made up by extremely skilled and technical players which are being ignored because one year ago we could gank people and get away with it.

Anonymous said...

Oh boy ... you sound very angry and disapointed about blizzard.

Rogues are the most neglected class IMHO - and without any lobby at Blizzard - the rogue class will fade away. What are we designed for - yes DMG - so give us the abilities to make dmg. Rogue class was overpowered at the begining of the game - because the gear and possibilities of the other classes was not good - now with all the endgame gear for the classes and the "polish" they got - rogues get more and more weaker - compared to the other classes. Blizzard forgot to scale the Rogues DMG possibilities with the upvaluation of the other classes. We still do DMG like we did at the early ages of WoW - we only got some new gear to push our ATK power - but our abilities are still the same.

Anonymous said...

Rogues have a few problems as far as I can see. The first one is a modified one that paladins deal with. How do you keep people in range?

Sure, you have crippling poision on your weapon (maybe) but you can't very well switch to it in a fast pvp situation. This is why most rogues open with cheap shot. As the original post mentions, why open with ambush when it will just lead to you being kited?

Warriors have this problem solved with intercept, charge and hamstring to go along with damn good dps, HP and plate.

Paladins have it a little tougher. They can be kited around, and have no range whatsoever unless they put 31 points in retribution. They do however have blessing of freedom, and blessing of sacrifice which can keep them out of CC in some situations.

Rogues really have nothing to break CC, except vanish. Nor do they have any tools other than stunlock to keep a caster/kiter in range.

The other problem rogues have in my mind is that while their posions offer excellent combat options, they are too costly, and take too long to put on in pvp.

Say I have a rogue on my team in a 5v5 (my guild does these all the time). I want the rogue to go get on the paladin on the other side. I want him to use mind numbing poision to slow down the paladins casts, and kick or stun him whenever he tries to heal.

Now the rogue can do that, but what happens when the paladin shields up? Or when the paladin dies? If the rogue wants to change mainhand poisons to crippling to go get that hunter he has to vanish/stelath and take 1 second or however long it takes to put the posion on.

I think they should make posions insta-cast like self buffs, and on top of that lower the costs for them. I think that would fix a lot of things.

Right now when I pick teams for my 5v5, I'll always take a warrior over a rogue. A warrior is easier for my paladin to heal, has better combat options, and can easily stay in range of anything he is trying to kill. On top of that his DPS is usually close enough to the rogues to make little difference.

Also, I think the current direction of the classes is stupid. They are trying to make all the classes near equal in DPS, so they stand out by their class abilities and not damage.

This is dumb. Hunters have mail, they shouldn't be doing the damage mages do. Warriors have plate, and shouldn't be able to out DPS rogues. If paladins are going to be support characters, they should be the best support characters in the game hands down. Druids as hybrids shouldn't be healing as well as priests, and if warlocks are the primary 'debuffer' then why don't they have better debuffs and less DPS? Deathcoil was a huge annoying band-aid.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like someone needs to reroll and stop bitching.

The only problem I have with rogues atm is broken vanish. Rogues can kill any class (with few exceptions) with ease if you have a) knowledge of the other classes weaknesses, and b) decent improvisation skills.

I do however agree with the last paragraph of the last posters post.

Anonymous said...

Vanish is broken, needs fixed, has needed fixed for ages. Rogue talent rework needed, keeps getting pushed back. I mean Throwing Skill in Tier 6 Combat tree.. cummon..

PvE damage output is too low compared to risk taken, hunters can match as can dps warriors. Mages can in some fights but not overall.

PvP.. don't go there, warriors are an easier class to kill than almost any other clothie, except priests maybe..locks deathcoil/seduce, mages blink/frost nova and yes while you can get out of them they all use 5min cooldowns, whereas frostnova/blink etc are on 20/30secs. Hunters.. flares, pets that don't care if you are stealthed, FD(Vanish idea but on 6x less cooldown) traps everytime you go near them, can't disarm as you get seen and scattershotted(same effect as blind but again.. much lower cooldown)

Rogue peak is at 49BG, at least you can kill things in there.. class badly needs a rework.

csselement said...

are you kidding? i know that lag issue and 'out of range' is annoying, as well as the vanish bug. however, i don't have much of a problem with hunters or locks.

VitaminC said...

Don't know about you, but I found it ridiculous when rogues say that they don't have problems with hunters...

Sure we beat them from time to time, but there is no way in hell you could take them down reliably.

Anonymous said...

+1 damage/healing != +1 damage OR +1 healing...

3.5/cast-time of the spell times overall damage/healing will give you how much it really affects the spells... kthx, l2wow

VitaminC said...

What you stated doesnt alter the fact that casters receive superior itemization than rogues.

The 3.5 second rule only helps in PvE to put a break on caster DPS/healing, but its worthless in PvP as casters having extremely good CC skills.

Fear == blind, except you can also nuke the victim, a 6x shorter cooldown, and 15 yard AoE.
Poly == sap, except you can use it in combat and can use it from 25 yard away.
Deathcoil == blind, except you can also nuke the victim, 3x shorter cooldown, and unbreakable.

Cast times? Pfft. pretty much non-existent for casters.

MikeMurko said...

For the damage mitigation... I really don't agree with you. Rogue's are very balanced, and our whole purpose is to be a *glass cannon*.

So I assume you're only talking about PvP, so us rogues vs hunters, we have less armour, sure..... but think about the benefits we get from ambush, stealth, vanish, and numerous other great skills.

You said hunters are invincible with their armour... but what exactly do you want? Rogues to be invincible? Come on, think of the big picture here.

VitaminC said...

We are not a glass cannon. Mages, hunters, warlocks, and now even priests are the glass cannon.

We are glass dagger at best. We cannot ambush from 30 yards and our damage is mitigated by armor, which increases patch after patch for all classes.

It's about PvP yo.

For PvE its a bit different, but we are still nowhere as close as glass cannon. You just don't shoot a cannon from 5 yards.

MikeMurko said...

So you want a ranged rogue who can ambush from 30 yards.... actually you're an idiot. I just read your post on the rogue boards. You sound like a 5 year old gangster who was brought up by wolves so that he could barely speak english.

You SUCK

PS. I know this is moderated, I just wanted you to know.

VitaminC said...

"So you want a ranged rogue who can ambush from 30 yards...."

That's a hunter, if you ever played the game call World of Warcraft.

And AFAIK, wolves don't speak English, so a 5yr old ganster brought up by wolves won't be able to speak English either.

lelokong said...

it sad to say this but, with self bufs, mage, locks, and priest have just about the same armor as rogue's. our only reason we take less damage is because of our high dodge rating. too bad in pvp dodge = death.

in 1.12 i doubt the vanish bug will be fixed, i doubt blizz even knows about it or care about it.

Anonymous said...

Regarding all aspects, 1 AP is more like 0,16-0,21 DpS, depending on your talents.
Important? I dont know...

Drinkitt of Cho'gall said...

I can't wait for your analysis of our review in 1.12

ForeShadow said...

The only advantage of having Str instead of AP is that Kings should be affecting the Str of items. Otherwise its useless.

Anonymous said...

as a rogue agree and understand on most points... also would like to add another problem. i dont know if its a lag issue or what but ive had mages blink out of and during cheap shots, so i may have a stunned mage but hes 30 yards away.

Anonymous said...

What sucks about fighting hunters, is the fact they almost have as much dodge as a rogue with aspect of the monkey on that combined with the mail armor is like wtf.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why HFB isn't a perm buff. Why the fuck do you have to stack it three times? who would be content with stacking it only once or twice? why not just give us the full effect if you're going to make us stack that shit every 30 secs. Paladins got their seals duration increased. At this point I would be happy with their old seal duration time.