New Combat Dagger Build

Taken directly from an email conversation:

If you want to own DM up, the most important thing, beside l2p, is spec all the high DPS buffing talents. So lets look at the DPS gained from the arguable talents (raid buffed DPS, using Tier 3 gears. Numbers roughly got from Chalon's current DPS calculators):

Adreline Rush (Direct-scaling):
Assuming you are doing 1400 expected/average backstabs, AR is 150 energy, or 150 / 60 * 1400 = 3500 damage, over 300 seconds, or a mere 11.7 DPS per talent point.

Murder (Direct-caling):
Assuming you are doing 750 DPS, murder adds straight 15 DPS when it applies, or 7.5 DPS per talent point.

Ruthlessness (Semi-scaling):
Assuming you are using SnD only, every 30 seconds, the actual CP/s = 0.6 / 30 = 0.02 CP/s
SnD DPS is around 110 of the overall 750 DPS, so each CP is worth 110/5 * 30s = 22 DPS/CP * 30s = 660 D/CP

0.02 CP/s * 660 D/CP = 13.2 DPS, or 4.4 DPS per talent point

Relentless Strikes (Direct-scaling):
Assuming you are using SnD only, every 30 seconds, so its an extra 25 energy every 30 seconds.

25/60 * 1400 = 583 damage, over 30 seconds = 19.4 DPS per talent point

Lethality (Semi-scaling):
Assuming 40% Crit, and Backstab DPS assumed to be 233. Working backwards, Backstab DPS is 122 ( 0.3 * 122 + 0.7 * 122 * 2.3 = 233).

So Lethality = 122 * 0.3 = 36.6 DPS per 5 talent points, or 7.3 DPS per talent point

Improved Poison (Non-scaling):
Assuming no VP, 15% Hit, 2.0 speed MH and OH, Backstabbing rogue.
20% * 130 * (90% * 1 + 95% / 4) = 29.575 ~ 30 DPS per 20% proc rate.

30 DPS per 20% proc rate => 3 DPS per 2% proc rate, or 3 DPS per talent point

  1. (Assasination Tier 2) 3/3 SnD is absolutely needed for combat daggers. Murder produces better DPS/talent point compare to Ruthlessness, so 2/2 Murder.
  2. (Assasination Tier 3) Lethality is 7.3 DPS per talent point vs. Relentless Strikes' 19.4 DPS per talent point. 1/1 Relentless Strikes + 4/5 Lethality.
  3. (Assasination Tier 3, Combat Tier 7) AR is 11.7 DPS/talent point, but would require 3 talent points investment (2 fillers), so its actually 11.7 DPS/ 3 talent points. The other choice is 1/5 Lethality @ 7.3 DPS + 2/3 Ruthlessness @ 4.4 DPS each, netting you 16.1 DPS/ 3 talent points.
The resulted build is:

Overall efficiency: 2/2 Imp SS, 3/3 Imp Gouge, 2/2 Imp Sprint as fillers (total of 7). The rest are all DPS producing talents, vs. 15/31/5 build with total of 9 fillers.

Hope this helps. Feel free to correct my errors.


Anonymous said...

I agree with the build very nice for combat daggers... If i can ask, how would you spec combat swords now for maximum raid DPS? Stil the variation of 20/33? Or maybe include some of the new subtlety specs?

Jemimus said...

I take it this also takes the new Eviscerate scaling into effect right?


The scaling is not that impressive IMO, and your overall DPS suggestions most likely still outway Rogues who like to use the Eviscerate ability a lot (like me).

ForeShadow said...

The problem about murder is that it doesn't affect the new instances such as AQ40 and Naxxramas.

Wise said...

Great stuff, although are you taking poison procs into considiration when looking at adrenaline rush?

Anonymous said...

Ruthlessness may be considerably lower than 4.4 DPS. With 3/3 SnD, you have enough to sustain cycle. Most of the extra points from ruthlessness will be going to ruptures or evisc, which are not anywhere near the 110 DPS of SnD.

Luciano Tolomei said...

I initially got the same conclusion.
The only problem that i see is that with
3/3 improved slice
2/3 ruthlesness
1/1 relentless

we are going to have spare cp.

I'm looking to understand the dps impact using some energy in doing some 1 cp rupture, but after some math it does not see

so i was thinkng if it was better to go for AR with somethink like that:

Sleefus said...

If i read it correctly, then
3/3 Snd = 110dps
2/2 Murder = 15 dps
1/1 RS = 19.4 dps
4/5 Lethality = 29.2dps
1/5 Leth + 2/3 Ruth = 16.1 dps

Total is 189.7 dps

Is this better than the dps you can get with a sub build to hemo?

Just hemo on its own generates 7dps per physical hit (glancing included).
So in a 40 man raid grp with 15 melee, you should be getting 20-25 physical hits per second (normals plus specials)
20*7 = 140dps
25*7 = 175dps
30*7 = 225dps

With the new talents that ignore 300 armor and the fact that rupture will now scale with AP, could you not be getting to more than 190dps?

Question: Does hemo stack or will two rogues just reset the 30 counter of a single debuff?

Of course in 20 man, solo etc you will not be as effective and you will also not be seeing your name top on damagemeters, because the damage is being spread over all the melee.

Renbletz said...

According to PTR testers, Murder is changed to 2%/4% on Humanoid targets only.

Thus, for raiding (which, as a straight sustained DPS build that you have, I assume this posted build is for), I'd recommend putting the points elsewhere unless the talent is changed back.


Odium said...

You forgot about the 2.5CP/300sec AR generates. That's 0.0083 CP/sec so 0.0083CP/sec*660D/sec = 5.5DPS additonial.

I think that AR will help you to get to your first 5CP SnD cycle pretty fast (just dont get aggro xD)

Anonymous said...

Also consider that Murder won't be helping as much in Ahn'Qiraj or Naxxramas.

Anonymous said...

Murder is going to get changed back to what it is on patchnotes.
Check the forum, blue posted already.

solfyre said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
solfyre said...

What are the drawbacks of current combat-dagger builds?
- Lack of burst damage
- Lack of flexibility

With the 5pt you save in the Sub tree and one point taken from Lethality you can actually increase your sustained PvE damage (Weapon Expertise!) get the best burst damage talent ever (AR) and pick up Improved Kick and Imp Sprint.

Murder sucks for high-end PvE as it won't help in AQ and Naxx and it's inferior to AR and Imp Kick in PvP.

All in all I'd go for this build:

asu said...

don't need Murder in AQ or Naxx

Anonymous said...

Hey VC you might want to check out this post on the rogue forums, kalman comments on this post a little bit as well as others.


I had to add a couple of returns but just put it back into 1 long url and you'll get there.

Luciano Tolomei said...

I was thinking on the veiled shadow set bonus.

-10 energy slice and dice cost.

i think it could let to switch from:
2/3 rut
0/2 murder
3/3 snd
0/3 rut
2/2 murder
3/3 snd
without any problem

so i was thinking for a 20 man raid instance the set bonus is really huge.

Elderane said...

Well, i think the way it is now, murder its useless, since i dont mind about dps in BWL (dragonkin), i care about AQ and Naxx, so i wouldnt go for murder, leaving 2 points for another thing, this way i prefer to take 1 point out of lethality, and make 15/31/5, since Murder would be useless, i would just need to look forward where to put these 2 cp to reach AR

Anonymous said...

You do know that there are some Humanoid bosses in Naxx, do you?

Hansel said...

To the poster above, no all bosses in naxx are undead even though they might look humanoid.

Also your AR calculation is on drugs, it will give a lot more because it cools down during recovery between fights.

Anonymous said...

Grand Widow is Humanoid

Beldukil said...

"Also your AR calculation is on drugs, it will give a lot more because it cools down during recovery between fights."

IMHO, most people care about the best damage on boss mobs not trash.

Anonymous said...


First I would like to apologize for my english because I'm french, I will try to be understandable as much as possible.

Is anybody doing like me in raid :
just 1 (or 2 because I have a SF build) combo point to launch SnD (for 9 seconds), then eviscerate as soon as SnD ends, and use the combo point gain thanks to Ruthlessness to launch SnD again.

I'm doing this, because Snd is more efficiency with only 1 combo point.

D = average damage of BS
C = cost of one BS (around 57 energy)
P = combo point gained by one BS (0,95 or 1.62 for a SF build with 30% crit)
Regen = 10 energy per second
N = number of combo points you use in SnD.

SnD_DPS(N) = [0,3 * (MH_DPS + OH_DPS) * (6 + 3 * N) * 1,45 + D * (N - 0,6) / P ] * Regen / [25 + C * (N -0,6) / P - 5 * N]

0,3 : 30% weapon speed increase
6 + 3 * N : duration of SnD
1,45 : bonus for Imp SnD
-0,6 : effect of ruthlessness
-5*N : effect of relentless Strike

This is Damage per second : the first [] is damage, Regen is energy per second, and the last [] is ernegy.

With this formula, it seems that SnD efficiency decreases with combo points, whereas Rupture and Evisc increase with combo points.

I've made some calculus, and SnD with 1 combo point is the most efficiency finishing move.

My formula may be wrong, but the simple idea which is beyond is that Ruthlessness doesn't depend on the number of combo points lost in the finishing move (contrary to Relentless Strike).

Thank you for reading, sorry for the mistakes, and thank you for your blog.

Anonymous said...

How would it be for a tier 1 / blue pvp geared rogue doing AQ40 /naxx?

Wouldnt Murder be less dps then then Ruthlessness?

Anonymous said...

I’m French too, well Canadian anyways.

This is in reply to the other comment made by the other French guy.

My thoughts on Slice N Dice is that even though your losing duration efficiency / combo points, your gaining way more efficiency in terms of energy since relentless will proc with 4-5 combos. This is where a 3/5/5 cycles starts paying off.

I may be wrong in all this; I don’t have the math knowledge to back my statements... sadly.

What I do with my SF backstab build is pop snd with 1-2 combo, stack 3, wait for snd to finish (save energy) pop a 3 point, get to 5 cbp (save energy), pop 5 pt snd, get another 5 combo used on evisc or rupture* depending on the armor mitigation of the enemy and if CB is up.

My opinion to be good at SF you need to keep as much energy in bank as possible, to pop in order to use that finisher at the right time. Saved energy is saved DPS.

I wish more maths were done around the perfect Cycles/builds for SF/daggers.

In example would 2/3 Imp SnD be better than 3/3? Since with 3/3 I find myself banking too much energy and wasting an energy tick because there is 2-3-4 seconds left on my SnD and I’m at 5 cbp and 110 energy.

I know it isn’t as much DPS as combat but it sure is way more fun to play.

Anonymous said...

Math is wrong regarding 15/31/5 vs. 18/27/5. Amongst other things:

Adrenaline Rush is given minimum possible value, ignores damage from combo points generated by those backstabs, and is underestimating Backstab average value for someone capable of 750 average DPS (the figure used for Murder).

Murder: doesn't apply to a large proportion of current raid content.

Ruthlessness: Is a lot more complex to model than a straight "X DPS per point" due to cycle interactions; in practice, for combat daggers the first point is useful, the other two provide 0 sustained DPS increase (however, they allow you to hit your 5 SnD cycle earlier in a fight and are worthwhile for that reason).

Lethality: Math's wrong. Using his assumptions (122 base backstab DPS, 40% crit), Lethality is 5.12 DPS per talent point, not 7.3 - (122*(1+1.3*.7) - 122*(1+0.7))/5


Anonymous said...

I seriously doubt that anyone in their right mind whould do an attack table where the dodge chance of your target whould affect the critchance of your hits. However, I seriously doubt Blizz designeers are in their right mind so I will consider myself openminded to this. Is there any solid evidence for this to be the case?