10.30.2006

Mutilate, Part 1: Dual Wield Spec vs Opportunity

The rogue class has evolved over time. I remember we used to wear the OH weapon purely for the stats (Bonescrapper) as OH weapon DPS were basically nullified by dual wield penality. As gears progresses, OH DPS becomes more and more important and at some point, become a significant part of the overall DPS profile. Mutilate elevate the OH DPS to another level as it is the first skill/talent that is mitigated by dual wield penality.

Mutilate adds 101 damage (rank 4) right on top of your MH and OH damage, does 150% when your target is poisoned, and awards 2 combo points (without SF). To maximize Mutilate damage, a slow offhand must be deployed.

Since I am not in Beta, I still have 3 questions about the mechanics of Mutilate.
1. Is Mutilate normalized?
2. Does OH receive the full bonus damage of 101 (rank 4), or bonus damage will first be adjusted by duel wield penality before adding?
3. Does Mutilate adds more than 3 combo points?

11/17/06 EDIT: Mutilate is normalized, the OH receives the full bonus damage, and adds at most 3 combo points.

That being said, an idea came to mind when I was on WoW over this weekend. Is Duel Wield Spec worth giving up Opportunity for?

Mutilate Rank 4, 101 with each weapon.
Assuming 30% crit, 5% hit, and 1540 attack power. Dual wielding Grand Marshal's Shanker (103-155, 1.8 speed). Also assuming Mutilate IS normalized, and OH receive the full bonus damage.

MH = 316 average damage

Mutilate, with Opportunity but no DW spec:
MH = (316 + 101) * 1.2 * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 696
OH = (158 + 101) * 1.2 * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 432
Sum = 1128 (1692, if poisoned)

Mutilate, with DW spec but no Opportunity:
MH = (316 + 101) * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 580
OH = (237 + 101) * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 470
Sum = 1050 (1575, if poisoned)

For comparison basis, backstab (rank 10) damage:
BS = (316 * 1.5 + 255) * 1.2 * (0.4 + 0.6 * 2.3) = 1557

So Mutilate is virtually the same DPE replacement for Backstab in PvE and is a slight boost in PvP. Keep in mind that I am calculating using 2 very slow and high damage daggers. So mutilate will benefit the GM/HWL crowd or the high-end raiding guild (Kingsfall/Deathsting) a lot more than random NE/UD rogue out there.

Mutilate should get a little boost on either damage or the poison requirements.

11/2/06 EDIT: Fixed the BS calculation. Apologies on the brain fart.

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

I agree. Totally not up to par as a 41pt talent. :/

Anonymous said...

Hey VitaminC,

For your dmg calculations
For comparison basis, backstab (rank 10) damage:
BS = (316 + 255) * 1.2 * 1.5 * (0.4 + 0.6 * 2.3) = 1830

it seems that you're running the +255dmg through the backstab multipliers. is that the correct formula?

tooltip has it as static dmg that doesn't go through 180%. then again blizz has a history of poorly worded tooltips.

-Draedin, from Shattered Hand

VitaminC said...

yes, just saw the error. modified.

Anonymous said...

Mutilate is two separate attacks atm, the MH and the OH. It is normalized for daggers. By being two separate attacks Cold Blood only affects the MH attack giving it 100% chance to crit while the off-hand doesn't.

Anonymous said...

Hm... Mutilate rank 4 is available at lvl 70, you said that you did the math from the pov of a lvl 60 - then you should calc with Mutilate rank 3 ...

Anonymous said...

You should also note that the calculations for mutilate vs. backstab damage only account for when the target is NOT poisoned. When the target is poisoned, mutilate damage is considerably higher than backstab.

Mutilate IS a good 41 point talent.

VitaminC said...

1. ya, thx for pointing out the rank 4 mutilate modifier. I think i am using rank 10 BS modifiers too.

2. The poisoned and non poisoned damage are both listed, and Mutilate does more damage than Backstab. But the poison requirement sucks. It does not do significantly more damage given the additional damage requirements.

Anonymous said...

I disagree with your numbers here. Even if blizz fixes parry/block, it is still inaccurate not to account for dodge.

Also it is not necessarily always true but at least for combat daggers, backstab is going to have +5% crit over mutilate due to dagger spec.

So if you say you can get your gear to 30% crit without dagger spec, you should have bs crit at 65%.

Finally I am sure the tooltip reads that backstab is *1.8, but you are using *1.5. Am I missing something?

So for my numbers I got

Mutilate w/Opportunity:
(316+101)*1.2*(.65+.3*2.3) = 671
(158+101)*1.2*(.65+.3*2.3) = 417
1088 total (1632 poisoned)

Backstab w/Opportunity:
(316*1.8+255)*1.2*(.3+.65*2.3)= 1774

Anonymous said...

I believe you BS calc is still wrong.

You have:
BS = (316 * 1.5 + 255) * 1.2 for base damage

Shouldn't it be:
BS = (316 * 1.8) + 255?

I don't think the 255 is multiplied by Opportunity’s 1.2. I say this because if your rogue has Opportunity, the tool tip lists BS as 180% and +255. If you doesn't have Opportunity, it list’s as 150% and still only +255. Perhaps B forgot to add the 20% to the 255 bonus, but my numbers check out against http://www.geekboys.org/wow/rogue.php

Anonymous said...

you still missing a vital point in the mutilate calculation for the offhand.

afaik offhand attacks suffers 19% more chance to miss, in addition to the "only do 50% damage".

so the calculation would be:

(158 * 1.5 + 225) * (0.51 + 0.3*2.3)

w/ leathality and precision.

Anonymous said...

offhand doesnt suffer more miss. When you dual wield, the increased miss rate is applied to both hands. However, this is for white dmg only. Special attacks (yellow dmg) do not get a miss penalty while dualwielding. Otherwise you'd see things like SS, BS ,etc miss a helluva lot more since rogues are always dual wielding.

Anonymous said...

You are incorrect about mutilate and the max number of combo points. CB + Mutilate is 4 points every time.

Rav said...

wow shocking number of wrong comments.

first, CB mutilate does in fact crit both hands. Its beautiful. But it does NOT give 4 cpts. You get 3 from a double crit not 4, just as VitaminC states.

lastly, the BS dmg with Opp 5/5 is:
(1.8x + 252) OR
(1.5x + 210) * 1.2
which is the same thing. Where x is your weapon dmg.

Although you should really use rank 9 which is (1.5 + 225) * 1.2

look
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=25300

Anonymous said...

In your Mutilate with Dual Wield math, you show the offhand with an identical dagger doing less damage than the main hand, which is exactly what dual wield spec fixes. Shouldn't it be:
Mutilate, with DW spec but no Opportunity:
MH = (316 + 101) * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 580
OH = (316 + 101) * (0.7 + 0.3 * 2.3) = 580
Sum = 1160 (1740, if poisoned)
?

Rav said...

to the above re DW spec and Mutilate.

no you misunderstand what DW spec does. It decreases the dmg penalty of your OH by 50%. It does not remove the penalty. Since the penalty is 50%, you take 50% of 50% which is 25%. Your new penalty is 25%. See? the penalty is cut in half.

Therefore with DW spec your OH would do 75% of full dmg, instead of 50% of full dmg.

Hawky.eS said...

while mutilate is a 41 points talents, BS with theorical same DPE allow you to expend those points in combat for being a top dps. In pve dps is what we look for.

For pvp, though mutilate generate combo points faster, you cannot afford subtley talents. I would stick for 30/0/31 for pvp; BS with passive extra crit plus seal fate will generate enough combo points and with premeditation, extra cp's from sutbetly and Cooldowns x2 you are much more prepared.

That's why im not a big fan of hybrids builds; I'rather to train talents according to what im sticking to.

Hawky said...

while mutilate is a 41 points talents, BS with theorical same DPE allow you to expend those points in combat for being a top dps. In pve dps is what we look for.

For pvp, though mutilate generate combo points faster, you cannot afford subtley talents. I would stick for 30/0/31 for pvp; BS with passive extra crit plus seal fate will generate enough combo points and with premeditation, extra cp's from sutbetly and Cooldowns x2 you are much more prepared.

That's why im not a big fan of hybrids builds; I'rather to train talents according to what im sticking to.

Anonymous said...

[quote]By being two separate attacks Cold Blood only affects the MH attack giving it 100% chance to crit while the off-hand doesn't.[/quote]

Wrong, its classed as one ability so cold blood makes both the main hand and off hand crit.

Anonymous said...

I am finishing the pending thought. CB does infact make both your MH and OH crit while using mutilate. But this is a pending thought on DWS vs. Opportuniy, so far i have found DWS being superior. As Rav said it gives your off-hand 75% of maximum damage. With top level daggers your Mutilates (averaging OH and MH together) should be about 1.5k (being 1.6k MH 1.4k OH=3k)that is not completely up to date being that black temple is open now.

Saybr of Uldum said...

For the Dual Wield Spec vs Opportunity comparision you took into account how mutilate would be affected by these two selections but you did not show that white damage is also increased with the Dual Wield Spec.

Based on typical raids I see 50% of my damage from white damage with mutilate accounting for 30%.

Using the white damage formulas posted on this site I calculate that I am getting an additional 45 dps from the dual wield spec. For me this is the extra information to help be choose between the two options.

Fabian said...

Hey VitaminC,

I got a question for you, can you calculate my Avg mutilate damage?

I got 24.91% crit, 1435 Ap and 233 hit (Yes its a bit to high for mutilate, soon changing Hit rating gems with Crit rating).

In my mainhand I have Merciless Gladiator shanker; 140-211 damage
And in my offhand I have malchazeen; 132-199 damage

Thanks in advance.

Fabian said...

Hey VitaminC,

I got a question for you, can you calculate my Avg mutilate damage?

I got 24.91% crit, 1435 Ap and 233 hit (Yes its a bit to high for mutilate, soon changing Hit rating gems with Crit rating).

In my mainhand I have Merciless Gladiator shanker; 140-211 damage
And in my offhand I have malchazeen; 132-199 damage

Thanks in advance.

Anonymous said...

Ok so i'm a level 62 rogue and whoever said cold blood only affects your MH for the crit is completely wrong, every time i hit cold blood and mutilate i get my MH and OH critting.

Anonymous said...

ok. REMEMBER. mutilate should only be used on a stunned target. You open with a cheap shot (2 points), then mutilate (4-5 points). wait a tick. Imp Kidney Shot!! (+9 percent damage) + Find Weakness (+ another 10 percent damage). Thats another 19% damage on your mutilates. BTW... getting a target poisoned is REALLY easy. L2Shiv GG.

Anonymous said...

I love Mutilate spec, and currently top dps in my ssc/tk farming guild.

I thought I would give a few pointers in raiding spec..

First of all, If you going to be raiding as Mutilate you need Sarrated blades. Most of the gear you want to look for is -armor reduction on your target, this increases your Mutilate dps output by a ton.

You rotations wouldnt even involve useing S&D. Heres what I do.

Since, Mutilate spec with Sarrated blades gains combo points extremly fast. I duel wield Deadly Poisons speced with Improved Envenom.

I start off with 2 Mutilates, My crit is 34.56% buffed I holy around 45% given the GoA totem/feral druid. I normally always get a crit on either offhand or main hand.

After I gain 5 combo, I use Rupture. (sucks for mobs that are Immune, but woe is it to be Mutilate spec) I gain 5 Combo points roughly 5 seconds later, by that time I have 5 poisons stack (again sucks on mobs that are Immune) I envenom. With sunders stacked and your sarrated blades/gear armor reduction 5 point/5 deadly I crit around 6k

I do this Mainly because useing the finisher "Rupture" you will gain a 10% boost on Envenom along with your mutilates you use to gain those Combos to use it.

If i happen to Cold Blood a Mutilate in between Rupture uses and envenom (which i normally do) My Mutilate with the ammount of armor reduction and attack power I have in a raid, hits depending on the mod, 2500-3500MH , 1500 - 2000OH (which BTW CB does effect both hits to crit.)

I use Fang of Vashj, and Heartrazor as my weapons. MH Enchant: Executioner, OH: Mongoose

I roughly reduc my targets armor, adding in Executioner by 2000 damage (also adding Sarrated blades) this doesnt add in Warp-Coil Spring Trink from VR in TK (adds 1000 more OCTH)

If you raid Mutilate, I strongly Recommend this spec.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboErsizVoZVMe00h

Also I open up with a Garrote, to make use of Initiative, Plus some of the points spent are pvp based (Camofluage, Fleetfooted, which btw is AWESOME I walk in stealth faster then people running on foot)

Thanks for reading. I hope you make Number 1 dps like me :)

PS. Make good use of Imp KS on all trash mobs.

Wanderer said...

To the person who left thelast post, I just.....can't believe what I am reading.


In raids YOU NEED hit percentage. Not only that, the damage of 50% weopon for offhand does MORE DAMAGE THEN opportunity. Your spec is for pvp.

Serrated blades? Are you kidding me? To any raid boss, even 2k armour reduction is lolcats. Every mutilate raider I have ever seen is 41/0/0. I just can't believe a rogue is posting this.


I'm only speaking common knowledge. I'm just dumbfounded at your 'logic'. Precision and duel wield = raid. That is just common sense. I pity your guild.

Dagger-lover said...

The last post is more than correct. Anyone who has actually used a rogue in raids knows that hit rating is most important, and that the distant majority of our dps is white damage. Any build involving the advanced sub tree is pvp. Also, the most helpful tip that I got was from the one person who actually thought to comment on overall raid dps rather than just crit size. I don't care if I get big crits nearly as much as I care about keeping my dps at the top of the charts. DWS is a great deal more dps than opp for mutilate spec. Once again, I know from experience. Still, it seems for daggers, combat spec is best for raiding, but its a close call, mutilate is more fun, and you don't necessarily have to waste 50gold respeccing just to be useful in a BG... arena however practically requires sub talents. Also, just to throw it out there, Mutilate is now widely considered the only viable pvp build for daggers mainly because of the combo point generation. On a personal note, I always thought the entire purpose of a rogue is sneaking around and fighting dirty with moves like ambush, backstab, and mutilate instead of all this face to face nonsense with maces and hemo. those nerf-crazy bastards at blizzard should give us resilience reduction instead of armor reduction, so we once again have reason to try for big crits. Sub/Ambush spec was fun in BGs where a good portion of people have trash gear, but against any properly specced class with good resilience, it really just makes a low damage rogue that takes a second or two longer to kill because of cheat death.