2.15.2006

SnD/Rupture and Finisher Efficiency - by Kalman (Updated 03.01.06)

Link to original post by Kalmam. And my apologies for spelling the name wrong twice. :(
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-rogue&T=918191&P=2

There are 3 common SnD specs: 0/3, 1/3, and 3/3 Improved. 2/3 specs are rare.

With 0/3, your timers are 9/12/15/18/21.
With 1/3, your timers are 10/14/17/21/24.
With 3/3, your timers are 13/17/22/26/30.

A 1 CP SnD is modelable as 20 energy, 0.4 CP cost.
A 2 CP SnD is modelable as 15 energy, 1.4 CP.
A 3 CP SnD is modelable as 10 energy, 2.4 CP.
A 4 CP SnD is modelable as 05 energy, 3.4 CP.
A 5 CP SnD is modelable as 00 energy, 4.4 CP.

(assumes Relentless/Ruthless)

Energy efficiency is defined as the percentage of your energy being used on damage skills (SS/BS) divided by the total energy required. It is unrelated to Imp SnD, except insofar as higher patterns may not be sustainable without it.

Energy efficiency is simple: energy spent on damage / total energy spent.

E.G., the 4 CP cycle for sword rogues is:

(3.4*40)/((3.4*40)+5) = 96%.


Energy efficiency: swords (1 CP = 40 energy)

All patterns are sustainable for a sword rogue.

1: 44% (56% wasted)
2: 79% (21% wasted)
3: 91% (9% wasted)
4: 97% (3% wasted)
5: 100% (no wasted energy, )

Energy efficiency: combat daggers (1 CP = 60 energy)

1: 54% (46% wasted)
*all higher patterns are unsustainable at 0/3*
2: 85%
*all higher patterns are unsustainable at 1/3*
3: 93.5%
4: 95%
5: 100%

I don't feel like dealing with SF daggers, but the CP/energy is easily calculable.

At 1/3, dagger specs pick up the 2 CP cycle as sustainable. At 3/3, all cycles are sustainable.

For a sword rogue, the 1 CP pattern is simply useless. You'll wind up wasting energy, or using CP on something other than SnD (and if you're going to do that, why aren't you using 5 CP to do it?).

For 3/3 Imp SnD, a sword rogue should be cycling:

5 SnD, 5 Rupture, 3 SnD, repeat. Overall efficiency for the cycle: 98%. SnD uptime? Constant.

5 SnD gives 30 seconds of SnD. 17.6 (average) will be spent getting to 5 Rupture. Rupture is zero-energy. Leaves 13.4 seconds to build to 3 pt SnD. Happily this requires 130 energy to do in worst case, technically averages at 106.

(Occasionally you'll wind up with bad misses, or unlucky on your Ruthless/Relentless procs. Adjust your cycle as needed, but the 5/5/3 cycle is very, very good.)

A combat dagger rogue at 3/3 will cycle:

5 SnD, 1 CP Rupture, repeat. This cycle is almost perfectly sustainable (30.45 seconds SnD. 4.4 average for the 1 CP Rupture, 26.4 average for the 5 CP SnD, means there's 0.35 un-SnDed. Drop the Rupture if you need to.) Energy efficiency here is effectively 100%, as Rupture energy is damage as well, but if you want to count Rupture as inefficiency, efficiency is 93.5%. I.E. as efficient as a 3 cycle, with a slight DPS boost from the rupture.

Unless you didn't improve SnD, 1 CP SnDs are wasting energy.


- Post Made by Kalman on Rogue Forum, Taken for My Personal Note.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

good stuff, thanks!

Tweak said...

Very good read, unfortuneatly the link to the original post does not work but I'm glad this has been saved. I've been doing stuff very ineffeciently, to my surprise, so I'm ganna go try some new stuff out tonight. =p

Anonymous said...

Kalman :P not kalam

Anonymous said...

Kalman, wrong spelling

Anonymous said...

2/3 S&D is not rare. Most Combat-Dagger rogues that use a 16/25/10 template will have 2/3 S&D.

2/3 S&D is exactly enough to start S&D with 2, the next with 3cp, 4cp to finally keep S&D's up with 5cp.

Even if a dagger rouge would have some spare cp's:
A 1 CP Rupture is modelable as 20 energy, 0.4 CP cost you spend 20 energy for 255dmg.
If you save the energy for an extra Backstab instead you will do more damage and instead of losing 1.2 cp you gain 1.

Anonymous said...

2/3 S&D is not rare. Most Combat-Dagger rogues that use a 16/25/10 template will have 2/3 S&D.

2/3 S&D is exactly enough to start S&D with 2, the next with 3cp, 4cp to finally keep S&D's up with 5cp.

Even if a dagger rouge would have some spare cp's:
A 1 CP Rupture is modelable as 20 energy, 0.4 CP cost you spend 20 energy for 255dmg.
If you save the energy for an extra Backstab instead you will do more damage and instead of losing 1.2 cp you gain 1.

Anonymous said...

K-A-L-M-A-N :P

Anonymous said...

at 26% crit, it takes roughly 3.8 seconds to generate one combo point for a SF dagger, BS spamming rogue

by the time one finish at S&D, the next S&D (5/5 CP) would be ready at exactly 16.9 seconds.

What do you do between the time 17s and 30s? Note that I only have 100-120 energy bar - and I can't just sit there & wait. I have to Do something.


What is the optimal way to spend the energy, in a PVE context?

Anonymous said...

i'm quite noob right now but really interesting.

for an hemo specced rogue how it will work ?
it seem to me that with 3/3 SnD

5 SnD / 5 Rupture repeat
can be good.

VitaminC said...

SF dagger can have constant rupture/snd updime.

Hemo rogue can follow Kalman's SS pattern.

Breakdance said...

Would this 5/5/3 cycle still be optimal if you were spamming Feint every 10 seconds?

VitaminC said...

5/5/3 won't be sustainable if you are using feint every 10 seconds.

Either use vanish at around 50%, or forget feint all together.

You shouldn't need to be using feint unless it's an aggro-ceiling fight such as Broodlord in BWL.

Anonymous said...

I use the fist set from ZG and just to clerify, your are saying that if i get 5 points, SnD, 5 points, rupture, 3 points, SnD, i will generate more dps then using eviscerates?

VitaminC said...

that is correct. you will net higher dps with SnD + rupture than evis.

Anonymous said...

This is great stuff. My only question is in regards to trash mobs, especially ones that go down very quickly.(ZG Comes to mind)
I am 16/25/10
If the above modeling and calculations are true it would be more efficient in quicker fights to avoid SnD altogether and focus on BS then pop a high CP Evis/Rupture. Is this an accurate statement?
Again thanks for the breakdown; this is a topic I have been chasing for a while and it's nice to see it in a format like this.

VitaminC said...

I think for ZG/AQ20 Trash Mobs, 1 SnD and Rupture will be better. I mean, they don't have lots of HP, and you won't have 100% melee time due to their whirlwinding/charging/fearing/etc.

Anonymous said...

What about mobs that are immune to rupture? Is there a 100% energy efficient cycle without rupture?

VitaminC said...

There is no 100% efficiency cycle that involves the use of 2 finishers.

However, if you have ruthlessness and relentless strikes, SnD alone is 100% efficiency. :p

Most bosses in BWL/AQ are not immune to rupture. Actually, All bosses in BWL/AQ are not immune to rupture. Likewise for AQ20 and ZG if I remember correctly.

Anonymous said...

The only MC bosses immune to rupture are elementals. Wouldn't Moam in AQ20 be immune as well?

Anonymous said...

Why exactly is rupture > evis? I just don't see it being possible. You don't ever have problems with People knocking it off? I'm a pure PvE raider and I always did SS, SnD, burn all cooldowns, SS spam, refresh SnD the second it wears off, evis at 5cp when i have leftover points. I can't say I understand your/Kalman's logic.

20/31/0 spec
http://www.wow-equip.com/viewtemplate.php?charid=4509&tempid=6482
dedicated PvE raider

VitaminC said...

I don't know how dedicated you are, but in my career of WoW Raiding (guild has C'thun down, I have been there till phase 2 and stopped for a while due to in activity), I never seen people using the whole 16 debuff slots always.

Yes, 16 debuff slots fills up quickly in the first 10-30 seconds. And its never filled afterwards.

And...

Why worry about Mr. Mage-the-9th-place-on-damage-meters when 5 rogues do about 40-60% of the overall damage on a bosses. Besides, knocking off their coe, if it ever happens, is good for the raid since they won't pull aggro easily without it.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why you wouldn't SnD off the first combo point - In the time it takes you to get to 5 combo points for the first SnD, you miss quite a bit of SnD damage.

I'd suggest opening with SS (i'm too lazy to stealth in endgame raiding), SnD, then building up your points from there, refreshing every time the SnD runs out. If there's something wrong with this i'd really like to know, because it makes sense to me and it's what i do

Anonymous said...

Ehm Vitaminc, you're optimizing for energy efficiency here. Obviously, we're not interested in max energy efficiency, we're interested in max dmg. That's why you get some weird results like 1 CP SnD isn't worth it. For combat daggers starting with 1 CP SnD will maximize your damage.

Anonymous said...

with my combat daggers rogue i use the cycle 4-5CP eviscerate, 4-5CP SnD, 4-5 CP rapture and its doing amazing dps, but the thing that makes it help is the glyph of sinister strike witch gives my sinister strike crits 50% chance to add 2 CP, and this is good if u think that i got nearly 40%crit