Main Hand Enchant | |||||||

DPS Chart | <= OH Poison DPS | None | Deadly Poison V | Instant Poison VI | Dense Sharpening Stone | Elemental Sharpening Stone | |

MH Poison DPS => | - | 25.4 | 16.2 | 6.6 | 5.2 | ||

OH | None | - | - | 25.39 | 16.18 | 6.57 | 5.25 |

Deadly Poison V | 20.9 | 20.91 | 46.30 | 37.09 | 27.48 | 26.16 | |

Instant Poison VI | 13.3 | 13.33 | 38.71 | 29.50 | 19.90 | 18.57 | |

Dense Sharpening Stone | 2.1 | 2.05 | 27.44 | 18.23 | 8.63 | 7.30 | |

Elemental Sharpening Stone | 5.2 | 5.25 | 30.64 | 21.43 | 11.82 | 10.50 | |

Temporary Enchant DPS = | 46.3 |

Main Hand Enchant | |||||||

DPS Chart | <= OH Poison DPS | None | Superior Striking (+5 Damage) | Agility (+15 Agility) | Crusader | Lifestealing | |

MH Poison DPS => | - | 4.1 | 3.3 | 4.0 | 3.4 | ||

OH | None | - | - | 4.11 | 3.30 | 3.98 | 3.37 |

Superior Striking (+5 Damage) | 1.3 | 1.28 | 5.39 | 4.59 | 5.27 | 4.65 | |

Agility (+15 Agility) | 3.3 | 3.30 | 7.41 | 6.61 | 7.29 | 6.67 | |

Crusader | 3.3 | 3.25 | 7.36 | 6.56 | 7.24 | 6.62 | |

Lifestealing | 2.5 | 2.46 | 6.57 | 5.76 | 6.44 | 5.83 | |

Weapon Enchant DPS = | 7.4 |

Now I learned Copy and Past from Excel into Blogspot will have formatting problems. :S

## 22 comments:

If you have calculated damage from Crusader and Lifestealing, you must have figured out the proc rate for these 2. I've seen several guesses as to these rates. Which did you use and have you tested this proc rate yourself?

Crusader has 1 PPM or 0.017 PPS

Lifestealing has 6 PPM or 0.1 PPS

To get proc rate(chance), you simply add up the proc chance of MH, OH, and Special attacks.

Proc Chance per hit = weapon speed discounted by miss rate / proc chance

So a 2.0 speed LS enchanted weapon with a 20% white attack miss rate will have

(2 Sec/Swing) * (1 Swing/ 0.8 Hit) * (0.1 Proc/Sec) = 25% Proc / Hit

Simple unit algebra.

sorry, i miss something on this table.

How you could number poison dps and such without knowing weapon speed ?

It's true that proc = proc per minute.

But these value change a lot about your spec, becouse special attacks proc too.

Slice and dice and blade flurry change it too.

in my opinion on MH:

dagger - backstab spec = better +5 damage

combat sword = better lifesteal or crusade (not tested too much)

hemo or with slow swords (like the 2.9 delay of rank 14) = better crusade

Speaking of enchants, I finally got a good weapon this weekend (Brutality Blade!) and had to make a decision on what enchant to get. Doing some basic calculations, this is how I saw them:

Crusader: Best damage for 40-man raid PvE but mediocre for PvP. The reason is that rogue PvP is very quick and you're unlikely to use much of that +100 STR.

Lifestealing: Worst damage and can be resisted. More useful in PvP and PvE grinding because it procs often. Not really effective in 40-man raid PvE.

Agility: 2nd best damage in end-game 40-man raiding. Consistent damage that's applicable to all types of gameplay. More useful on OH weapons than proc enchants.

I ended up going with Agility on MH & OH. It was cheaper and dramatically improved both my PvE & PvP skills.

Anyone else have enchant preferences?

The tables are generated using MH/OH weapon speeds, white attack DPS, instant attack DPS, etc. You won't be as questionable if you seen/played around with the WIP spreadsheet. :p

Scott, it's better to put +15 Agi on brutatility blade because you will very likely to be OH it after Claw/CTS.

sorry i did not play with your spread sheet... i did not see it.

I said i was missing something.

go to play with it.

sorry for all these post... but i cannot find a link to your spreadsheet anywhere.

It's my understanding that the 6ppm of lifesteal gets directly applied to the weapon as a fixed percentage.

So a 2.8 speed will have a 28% proc rate that then gets applied to instant attacks, greatly boosting the achieved ppm.

Ooz, that's only partially correct.

1) proc chance is static

2) proc per swing is also static

3) proc per HIT is NOT static and is subject to your hit rate (crit hit + non-crit hit)

So, say LS is 6 PPM and you are using 2.8 speed weapon with 80% hit rate.

LS proc chance is 6PPM

proc per swing = 2.8 * 0.1 = 28%

proc per hit = 28% * 0.8 = 22.4% (not static and depending on hit rate)

you only proc when your swing lands (hits).

Would the achieved ppm not be greater than 6 due to instant attacks then?

60/2.8 = 21.4 swings per minute. At 20 energy per 2 seconds, you can sinister strike 15 times per minute.

Wouldn't the % to proc be determined on white damage only? and therefore would applied fixed as 28%, achieve 22.4% then be applied as 28% on those 15 Sinister Strikes?

How can its proc rate consider yellow damage if its unknown how many additional swings will be included? If it is indeed applied as a fixed %, then that can only be determined from white damage.

I think Ozz was referring to the fact that instant attacks would increase the actual procs/min.

So you're using a 2.8 spd weapon with a .80 hit chance, you would get a 22.4% chance to proc. For regular attacks, that would be .224 * (60/2.8) = 4.8 procs. If you got off 15 Sinister Strikes in that minute, you would proc .224 * 15 = 3.36 times. For a total of 8.16 procs/min. A talent like sword specialization would increase this further.

This is why many rogues like having a proc weapon in their main hand.

PPM for any enchant/trinket procs stays constant.

The actual PPM does not because its subject to your hit rate and weapon speed.

Your proc chance (per hit) is simply PPM * weapon speed * hit rate, and is used for all calculations.

yes, MH LS enchant will have proc more than 6 ppm due to instant attacks. OH LS enchant will proc less than 6 ppm due to miss rate.

It's exactly the same thing as your MH IPVI will run out faster than OH IPVI.

Right.. so 6ppm @ 80% hit will give 4.8ppm, on 2.8 speed weapon you get 15 more hits @ 28% = 4.2ppm.

Add yellow and white and you get 9 procs.

9*30/60 = 4.5 dps on MH for combat, substantially less for dagger.

How can you put a straight dps gain in a chart when it varies so much with the weapon you're using?

Daggers have lower proc rate (due to faster speed) and 50% less instant attacks (60 energy vs 40). Wouldn't this make LS the best sword enchant, but the worst dagger enchant (refering to main hand here)?

not really,

if you look at it closely,

Proc chance on hit = PPM * Weapon Speed * Hit Rate

Yes dagger's proc chance on hit will be lower, but that will be compensated by your higher weapon speed, so your overall white proc # will be the same at 6PPM although very spiky.

crusader will proc a lot less than lifestealing, but its higher damage buff has its advantages. but regardless either crusader or ls aint worth it over +5 damage for MH daggers.

I still haven't understood one thing.

You said that PPM is static.

But slower weapons have a higher chance to proc to compensate for the lower speed.

Now let's assume that a sword has 40% proc per hit and a dagger 20%.

Dealing only white damage they will both proc 6 times in 1 minute.

Now let's say that we hit the same amount of SS with both weapons in this 1 minute.

Will the increase of the procs be the same on both weapons or the 40% proc per hit chance of the sword will result in more procs that coming from the special attacks?

1. PPM of an item is defined and static. Actual PPM factors in weapon speeds, etc.

2. Proc rate = PPM / 60 * Weapon Speed.

I think you got confused by PPM (proc per minute, predefined), and the actual procs per minute rate thats derived from predefined PPM and weapon speeds.

Ok I think if u answer me to this I will get it.

We have a 1,7 spd dagger and a 2,8 sword.

Both are enchanted with an enchant that has 6 PPM.

Now plz tell me how many procs I will see in 1 minute.

Sword

Only White:

White+15SS:

White+15SS+SnD Running all the time:

Dagger

Only White:

White+15SS:

White+15SS+SnD Running all the time:

Sorry if I become a bit boring but I have to make this clear in my mind.Thanks again! :)

6 PPM = 0.1 PPS.

1 min duration.

Sword0.1 PPS * 2.8 S/Swing = 28% proc per swing.

Only White: 17% proc per swing * (60 second / 2.8 second / Swing) = 6 procs

White+15SS: 6 procs + 28% proc per swing * 15 swings = 10.2 procs

White+15SS+SnD Running all the time:

28% proc per swing * (60 second / 2.8 second / 1.3 swing) + 28% proc per swing * 15 swings = 12 procs

Daggers0.1 PPS * 1.7 s/swing = 17% proc per swing

Only White: 17% proc per swing * (60 second / 1.7 second / Swing) = 6 procs

White+15SS: 6 procs + 17% proc per swing * 15 swings = 8.55 procs

White+15SS+SnD Running all the time:

17% proc per swing * (60 second / 1.7 second / 1.3 swing) + 17% proc per swing * 15 swings = 10.35 procs

Hope this helps. This is assuming all attack lands (no miss/dodge/parry/block)

Yeap it is clear now. Thanks a lot! :)

OK, having some trouble reading your chart posted above. Maybe its the formatting? I'm trying to figure out which MH enchant would give more damage for a *single* Ambush, +15 Agi or +5 weapon damage.

I'm not too concerned about sustained damage for PvP, just want my ambush/backstab to be as large as possible. Would the extra attack power make a higher hit? or the +5 damge being multiplied by attack power?

Thanks for all the great info here by the way. I'm very glad you've included calculations for the seal fate build, it may not be the top sustained damage PvE build, but IMHO, its a great compromise for PvE and PvP.

Any chance to get a link to the spreadsheet you are refering to, I can't seem to find it anywhere if it's even supposed to be there :(

I use + 7 dmg mainhand on a 1.8 speed epic dagger, i also put a +8 dmg sharp stone on this.

For my offhand i go with crippling poison, idea is i get MASSIVE ambushes my record being 1692 at lvl 46 with zerker :P

the + 15 dmg from the chant and stone gives 15 dmg PER hit, which is around 86 ish AP ? aprox.

Thats before my crit chance which is 100 + percent when remorseless.

with the 350 % multiplier from ambush and the talents in lethality (or pos even the 35 % hp talent if they are below that hp marker) this chant gives insane extra dmg on crits, someone whos good with formulas could work it out here maybe.

and similar with my 50 % backstab crit chance giving this extra dmg.

by the time i have landed ambush backstab and 2 offhand hits i hope the crippling procs, if it does not, as the target is running BLIND, regen, backstab, kidney, gouge backstab.

Or use sprint to kill them :P or if they dont have the arathi basin boots (which i do but im only 47) then they are going no where :)

most times i walk up to any 40-49 (any class) and take between 50% and 100% hp within the first 5 seconds with these openers, most times the preists cant scream before they drop (ambush 1000 average hit and a 700 average hit backstab crit combo its lights out.

ANY rogue that isnt perhaps endgame where they can use mongoose etc should DEFO concider getting a good dagger and putting a +5-7 dmg chant and use a sharpening stone, its much better than any other chant for a backstab/ambush rogue.

just my opinions.

PS. 19 combat twink, 19 backstab twink, 29 ambush FULL twink, 46 soon 49 pro twink burst hybrid and a 62 main rogue to my name.

On the lvl 29 twink i have 2 mainhands, a 1.8 blue with +5 and + 6 stone and a 1.9 blue with 15 + agi, ambush with dmg, swap to agi, so you get a big opener, have crippling on the second dagger and 15 + agi on both.

played since beta and this is my opinion.

hope it helps.

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